Natalie is joined by Louise Frankland, the managing director of Mansfield Pollard, an engineering company based in Bradford that was, until earlier this year, a third-generation family-owned business. Natalie and Louise discuss the challenges and opportunities of transitioning from a family business to a privately-owned business and how to take a business forward when the family name is still above the door, but the family aren’t involved, all while working through a pandemic.
Dealing with personal relationship dynamics – 3m
When running a business with a spouse, it can be tricky to understand who takes the role of leader. To make this a bit easier, try to separate home and work life and set defined roles, responsibilities and boundaries.
Having the succession talk – 10m
It can be difficult when the next generation doesn’t want to take on the business. So, what do you do next, who do you talk to and do you know what you’re looking for? For Mansfield Pollard, looking for someone who identified with the company’s values was important.
Letting go of family legacy - 13m50
For Louise, there was never a conversation about changing the business name and there was always that respect for what the business stood for and achieved over the last 100 years. However, there was need for new ideas and how to evolve the business around competitors, market segments and clients. What was important was making sure to also have that clear communication with those that have been with the business for any years and make sure all are able to adapt to change.
Transitioning from a family business to a privately-owned business – 16m 50
To transition, trust with your staff is fundamental. As well as having openness, honesty and integrity as your core values. Being able to be in the position to say where you are now and where you want the business to go is key and being able to communicate it well.
Focusing on the long term and when to be reactive – 21m 45
The positives of being a privately-owned business is having an idea and being able to run with it, whether that be planning for the future, or if you need to react quickly to economic changes.
Adapting to COVID-19 – 25m
Going into lockdown meant understanding where the business was, where it needed to go, what areas needed attention and what needed more resources. As well as understanding what’s happening in the market and what’s bringing customers in.
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In 2018, we launched our first Family Business survey in partnership with Family Business United. The survey revealed the challenges, opportunities and issues that family businesses are facing on a daily basis. And whilst the specific detail may change because of external factors, such as Brexit and now the global pandemic, it became clear that there are a number of issues that family businesses will always face, so we wanted to continue with our research in 2019 with a second survey and our 2020 survey will be published this Autumn.
To view the Family Business Survey 2019, click here
To request a copy of the Family Business survey when it is released, click here
You are listening to the Exploring Family Business podcast, brought to you by Mazars. A resource of insights, information, and knowledge-sharing from pharma business owners, their advisors, and key individuals involved in the day-to-day running of a family business. I am your host, Natalie Wright, head of family business at Mazars UK, and having worked at extensively with family businesses for a number of years and continues to support this valuable sector of our society. At Mazars, we believe there is nothing more personal than a family business. Every family and every business are unique. So, we look forward to sharing a number of interviews, conversations and panel discussions with you each week, as we explore what is top of the agenda for family businesses in the UK. Now onto this week's show. Hello, and welcome to the fifth episode of the Exploring Family Business podcast with Mazars. I'm your host, Natalie Wright.
And on this week's show, we'll be discussing the opportunities and challenges that come with buying a family business. Today I have the pleasure of interviewing Louise Frankland, the managing director of Mansfield Pollard, an engineering company based in Bradford that was until earlier this year, a third-generation family-owned business. Louise and her business partner, Brian Bentley joined forces to buyout the existing owners at the start of the year, and completed the deal just a month before the UK went into lockdown. Louise, thank you for joining me today. That was a really brief introduction from me, so would you mind explaining to our listeners who you are, your background and what led you to becoming the MD and co-owner of a business that's now celebrating its 154th year?
I will. Thank you for the introduction there, Natalie. So, as you stated, I'm the managing director. I joined Mansfield Pollard a few years before as the sales director. I came in to transform the sales, marketing and service side of the business. And prior to that, while Mansfield Pollard was a different market segment for me being in handling acoustics and kitchen ventilation, my prior background was actually in lighting. So, I worked for 16 years with my husband in a lighting company, an early adopter of LED technology.
So, the company was similar in route to market to Mansfield Pollard, but a completely different product. So, while I'm the outset it looked like a strange step to move from lighting into handling, actually it was a relatively straightforward and a relatively simple one. So, I came in as a sales director to look at how we could push for further growth, look at expanding into new markets here at MP. And then eventually over that time, there were some changes in the business. I moved into the role of managing director towards the end of 2019. And as you just mentioned, went through a management buyout at the start of 2020.
Thanks for that Louise. So, we will come on to Mansfield Pollard and what happened this year. But before we get to that, can we first talk about your experience in your previous business, because you mentioned you were in business with your husband for 16 years. So whilst it wasn't a family-run business so to speak, I'm sure you will have had to deal with many of the complexities that can arise when you are working with a member of family, not least because it was your husband. And what did that experience teach you about managing personal relationships, but whilst being able to still make clear and focused business decisions, especially if you didn't agree in certain scenarios?
I think for sure in any business that's going to happen. And it's certainly a different dynamic when there's some personal relationships there. So, for myself and my husband, we sort of grew up through that company. He joined in 1996, I joined in early 2000. And as I said earlier, we were this early adopter of LED technology going through significant growth in UK and export markets. And I grew my career there really moving into sales director in early 2011. So, for us working together, it was very much about having defined roles. And even when we came to buy the company, we went through a management buyout there in 2004 and sold later in 2015, I think with any business where you have family members, it's very important that you have clear roles, clear boundaries. And for us, what tended to work was, I don't want to say two personas because that's not quite that extreme, but you do have to separate home and work undoubtedly.
And it's the same in any business. A business needs a leader. It's not like a marriage where it's a partnership. It doesn't work that way. There needs to be a point in time where one person can say, this is going to be the direction that we're taking this decision in. And there needs to be that understanding of who's going to have that decision and actually be happy that that other person, if we can't reach an agreement that, that's the route that's taken because the business cannot afford to have two people, different views squabbling at the top if you like. So, for us, it was very much about defined roles and responsibilities, making sure that you do keep the two as separate as you can. That's not always possible. There are always times, if you've had a bad day, you both had a bad day. You're not going home to a partner that's perhaps had a good day in a different business.
And conversely, if you've had a good day, everybody's having a good day. So very much clear roles, having one person as that leader that makes the decision, which in this instance was my husband. And I think balancing it with the board as well. I think undoubtedly there's a different dynamic at board level if you've got a family member or two family members on that board, because you perhaps would often say things and be more open about saying things that you maybe wouldn't as non-related board members.
I think that's some really good points. And actually, I like the analogy of the partnership and the leadership. And one thing that you can find in family businesses, now it depends on the nature of the business and actually how many family members are involved, but almost having that fear of one person being the leader. It's not to say that that person will make every decision, but you do need some clear lines of leadership to make sure that decisions can be effective. And actually, that it's communicated to the rest of the team in the best way.
Absolutely. As a board, you are there to collectively bounce ideas around the table and everybody puts their opinion forward. But ultimately there is then a managing director or CEO that takes all those opinions on board. And if necessary, if there is some disagreement or discord aboard, they have to make a decision. And I don't think that's any different really from family-owned to running a non-family owned business.
So, making that proactive decision then to leave the business and to move into a new venture, it must've been quite a big step, especially because you and your husband had worked together for so long. So, what conversations did you have about how it might change the dynamics of your relationship after working together for such a long period of time?
I think it was mixed emotions for us both really. The role that I was then doing in the business was involving a lot of travel. So, I was traveling abroad and out of the UK a significant amount of time. So, that undoubtedly impacts the home dynamic of things because we've got two young children. And then you've also got the balance of when you've worked together for so long, you both know the business inside out. You know where you want to take it. And there's a nervousness of thinking, well, who's going to do that if I'm not there? So, lots of talking, lots of discussions. And ultimately, I think in my case, I probably was looking to be traveling less and moving into a different role a good year or two before I actually left. And it's partly that family tie and having worked together for so long that I think perhaps made me stay that extra year or two until eventually you talk and you both reach a decision of, this is what we're going to do.
It's daunting for sure for both of us, because my husband was used to having me there as a soundboard when he wants to ask things. And I was also thinking, well, what do I want to do next? And how is this going to feel being in a different business without him there? But it's open, clear communication. And actually for us on a personal note, it was actually much easier after I'd made the decision to go because we could get back on with life and having fun and talking about two different businesses then. And adding to each other's businesses rather than being within the same business all the time. So, it was a positive experience, but a challenging one at the time for sure.
I like that positive experience side of it. So, you can add something to each other because you're in separate businesses now. And actually, it wasn't just about you moving out of the business. It was also his role would have changed in terms of, you were used to working together so closely and bouncing ideas off each other directly on a day to-day basis that suddenly I'm guessing it became more strategic and perhaps change the conversations that you were having.
Absolutely. And even though I departed and moved on, you're still already intrinsically entwined in any business that you've been there for that length of time, but particularly because my husband was still there. Still always and do now feel very close to that business and want to know what's going on and how things are evolving. And the guy that I brought in to do my role was a breath of fresh air. And ready for the next level again about evolving and motivation and had a different life balance to me and was happy to go back to what I was doing in the early days before I had children, which is potentially being away two, three weeks on end right across the Middle East and far east. And that's what the business needed again. It needed the next person to be able to come in and give it that time and enthusiasm and motivation that it needed. I will always still now be interested and continue to be interested in what happens in that business and how it evolves.
Let's move to 2019 then. The initial discussions that took place with Alan, who I understand was the owner and chairman of Mansfield Pollard at the time. There was no next generation to pass that business onto was there? Or at least no one within the family who was in a position to take on the leadership and management. So how did the initial discussions start with yourself and your business partner, Brian, because I can imagine that there's a lot of individuals listening who perhaps want to engage in a discussion about succession and ultimately ownership, but they don't always know where to start or what options might be available.
Yeah, I think it was ... There was no, no secret in the fact that Alan was looking for somebody to take the company forward. As you say, there was nobody within his own family that was wanting to come in and continue with Mansfield Pollard. And it had been in Alan's family for almost 100 years. And there's lots of examples of these where there isn't a family member that can take on a company and continue to grow for a variety of reasons. So then naturally I anticipate as Alan was, looking for somebody who is, or a group of people who are aligned to his values and to the company that understands the business that wants to ... Now Alan calls us the next generation, which is a really nice way to put it, but wanting to find a group of people or an individual that can really drive the company forward and can continue to build on this fantastic brand and company that's been built over 154 years.
So, there was no secret that Alan with time was going to look for who's going to take that forward, and who's this person going to be, or who's the group of people going to be? And for us, in any business with whatever decision or subject matter that you need to discuss, without open, clear communication and being bold enough sometimes, or brave enough to be open and honest about what you're looking for as an individual in your future and where you want to be. And also, for somebody like Alan, that's an owner of the business. Brian's a great example that he'd come in as the operations director. And during that interview process was very clear in there's always that cliché question of, where do you want to be in five years’ time? But actually, it's a really important question because what do you want to do in five years’ time?
And what Brian had said from the very, very beginning was, I'm looking for a challenge. I'm looking to come in and transform operations, but actually as an individual, I want to find a permanent home. I want to be part of something. Again, it's about this clear communication. I'd obviously had some history from management buyouts and previous companies and was looking for this next challenge as well. And Alan was looking for this next generation as he calls it. So, it was a natural fit I suppose. It was quite an easy, straightforward conversation to have. But that first point of the conversation at the very, very beginning is, are we aligned in our values and our thought process as to where the business has gone, where we want to take it, and what we want to do as individuals? And the number one thing we've said through the process is trust. It's all about trust. Can we together build a trust that's there that is unbreakable, that we can be open and honest. And we've still said that now. I still catch up with Alan from time to time. We just recently had lunch. And there's no awkward moments, there are no difficulties. If we've got any questions, we say it as it is, and we trust each other. And I think that makes for a really great dynamic.
It's really nice to hear that it's his view as well, that he's passed it on to our next generation. So, it's not just how to be the next generation of his family. It's the business family almost. He brought you guys into the business to continue to grow it and make sure it's there for the longer term. And you are that next generation continuing it.
It is. It's being able to bring a different perspective I think, to a long-standing business with taking into account its history, but also looking at new ideas and how we can evolve it at the same time.
Obviously having the family name above the door and having moved to the third generation, there must have been to some extent some different conversations that perhaps took place when compared to the process that you went through when you exited your previous business. And letting go and separating family legacy can be a huge emotional hurdle to overcome for many families. Did they have any specific concerns around things like returning the name, branding employees, and how did you deal with maybe those conversations, very different to kind of financials and other things?
Yeah. I think that there is a legacy there. There's an experience there. For Brian and myself, there was never even a conversation of changing names or anything like that. I don't think Franklin Bentley has quite the same ring to it as Mansfield Pollard. The brand has been synonymous with quality and with our humbling and in its history for a very, very long time. And we are very proud of that. And I know that Alan's very proud of that. So, there was never a question that we would ever do anything as extreme as changing names and those types of things. And I think for Alan, Alan is proud to have that name above the door and proud of its history. And, and we talk about it still pops in every now and then and will tell me some fantastic stories of how he remembers, not just his 40 years in the business, but he remembers his father running it and he remembers his grandfather running it.
So, for us, we're very respectful of that, because that respect is well-due given its length of time that it's been around and how successful it's been. But as I touched on, it's also about looking at bringing new ideas in and saying, how can we continue to evolve the businesses around us, our competitors, our market segments, our clients, everything is changing more than ever in particular this year, but we need to make sure that we put the business in the best possible position to adapt to that. So, it's about looking at the teams of people and looking at where we think they can take it. That clear communication is important. That's always there. And I think going through the type of change where you go from a management buyout, where perhaps we have a family member or it's changing hands, it's particularly important to be communicating that internally to staff that have been, we've got longstanding members here of 30, 35 years surveys. 20,25.
I'm looking around the office now with people in here of 15, 20 years. So, they remember the days where Alan worked in the business with his brother Barrett. And it's about communicating to those guys what our vision is for the business, and how there can be part of it, and part of setting out where we want to go. And equally externally as well, things like suppliers, and other key people within the chain that made Mansfield Pollard the company it is. You need to make sure that we're communicating that message externally as well, to make sure that people are aware of the changes and why we're changing it. And hopefully why it's going to continue to be successful.
It's evident from everything that you've said so far that trust and clear communication have really been essential to create that smooth transition from a family-owned business to now becoming a privately-owned business. Could you share some thoughts with our listeners on maybe how you focused on those two areas to ensure that the transition was a success from both sides?
Sure. I think that trust is the number one. It's fundamental. And that comes from an openness and an honesty and integrity is the core values [inaudible 00:17:14]. Some of those main ones are integrity and honesty. It's being able to say what you're going to do. And most importantly, stick to it. And that's what I've built my career on, right the way through my prior lighting career and here is if you're going to do something then, and make sure that you do it, make sure you're open and honest about how you feel. And once you do that, if people talk about length of time it takes to build trust and how it can be broken so fast, it's really important that that doesn't happen. And I think it’s clear communication from the start. So, with Alan, having those open honest conversations about where we are, what we would like to do with the business, where we see the future of it and the same for Alan also his, expectations.
And then the communication side was really about making sure everybody has sat down. We've talked not only about the business and where the business is going, but more often than not teams of people are often sat there thinking, what does this mean to me? It's a natural thing for somebody to sit there. They're not really interested at the start of the business side. It's what does it mean for me, is my job secure? What changes is it going to make? What other opportunities for me? So, it's mapping that out clearly. And I think you're never going to have answers to every single question, but you need to have answers to at least 80 to 90% of them. So, when we announced the management buyout, it was very much an open forum. Everybody from the business was in one room. There was Alan, Brian, myself, all talked about the management buyout and why we're doing it. What it meant for the business and where we were trying to take it.
But then we at the end of that, we did look, has anybody got any questions? And there was a few, but people often when you've got 150, 160 people, they don't want to put their hand up to ask a question. So, we said, look, we're now staying around to [inaudible 00:19:02], come and talk to us. And that was the time that we then spent probably another hour and a half, two hours all in one big room, having some sandwiches. And that type of informal environment where people can come over and say, well, what about this? What about that? And what I found was quite interesting in that phase was actually, we've got people coming over saying, I've got this idea and I've got that idea. And we've been thinking about this. And we've been thinking about that because I think there had been a nervousness from them of, what's next?
We knew that Alan wasn't getting any younger without being rude and say that he was sat here. So, I think they're also thinking, well, what happens next? And so suddenly it was fantastic to have people coming over saying, can we talk about this? And can we talk about that? And again, making sure you follow up with that. So yes, let's put some time in the diary to talk about this, or let's pick that back up. And make sure that you do pick that back up. Don't just nod your head, yes, and then it disappears off the radar. You want people to sort of buy into this and understand where we're going and how they can be part of it. You need to make sure you pick up on that stuff.
I guess it's about embracing the change and looking at the positives, isn't it? We often find that as individuals, we intrinsically don't like change that much, but if you're talking openly and you're giving people a forum to actually come forward and say, if you've got concerns or if you've got ideas, let's talk about it openly. And let's look at how we can affect change together and actually make sure that it's for the benefit of everyone. You obviously gave them that platform to do it.
I had the added benefit as well that I'd already been in the business three years prior. Brian had been in the business just over 12 months. So, they'd seen the impact that Brian had brought in operations and with those changes and that we were listening. And they knew me as well already. So, you've already got that base level of communication, openness and trust that they can build on. So, it was slightly easier for us I suppose, than somebody completely new coming in that they don't know. They don't have any relationship with. Maybe it would have been trickier, I suppose. But we certainly had that benefit [inaudible 00:21:02] and we'd worked in the business.
I think that's a fair point. And also vice versa. You had from your perspective, you were able to actually recognize who was in the business, where people added value, what roles maybe they could have in the future. And it gave you some time to possibly analyse that from almost a one step removed before you actually became the owners. So, that probably helped ...
Absolutely. And I think you know ... I know every individual. So, you know those that will be quite happy to put their hand up in a room and ask a question. Those that might come to you later. And conversely, those that you know will worry, that won't necessarily come to you, then you make the effort to go and talk to them and say, what do you think? Or how do you find this? There's absolutely a benefit there as well, yes.
So, we know that pharma businesses tend to have a focus on sustainability, and by the very nature of moving through generations they do focus on the longer term rather than being solely reactive to current events and the short term. But from your experience, have you found it beneficial when you were thinking about buying into the business and where you could take it in the future?
For sure. There are benefits to both sides. With a family business you have that legacy, you have that experience. As I mentioned, I've met with Alan this week to have lunch with him. And we'll talk about things that are happening in the market now. And he will often say, have you thought about X, Y, and Zed? Or it could be 10 years ago, it might be 20 years ago, but there are things that are still relevant because he's lived through a variety of different changes over that time. So, there's a benefit there to the family business and the experience. And I think as an SME family-type business, you do as you say have the option to make decisions that are based more long-term. We don't always have to be as snappy short term, quick return, private equity back-type scenarios, so there's benefit there.
But there's also the opportunity to again, as an SME, having gone myself, I've worked in SMEs and then gone up to corporate and then come gone back into SME because that's where I like to be. And the reason I like that is you can make quick decisions when you need to. You can sit around a board table as we do now. And it's the people in that boardroom at the time that will make the decision. And we can say, right, we're thinking of moving into this market, or we're thinking of investing in this area. And as long as there's a clear, strong business case, they press the button and you get on with it. My previous experience in corporate world was somewhat longer than that. A lot more processes and hoops to jump through, several PowerPoints passed up the chain and back down again. So, there are benefits to both.
You don't have to make that short-term decision immediately because you've got this experience, you've got this legacy and you've got a longer-term decision-making process. But equally, when you need to react quickly in the cases of what's happening this year with the economy, actually you can do that. You can get together and say, right, we're making this decision, and this is what we're doing. I think ultimately with every business, the key thing that arches over the top of all of this is just having a really clearly defined business plan. It's sitting down at the start, we have a business plan three to five years of where we want to be, not just from a turnover and profitability perspective, but also around staff engagement. We want to be the best employer in the region, customer satisfaction, cost of quality. And each of those metrics across the company break down into individual business plans.
So, there's a finance plan, a sales plan, a marketing plan, et cetera. And they go further within the teams then. So, if we look at a sales plan or a marketing plan, there's certain key aspects of those goals and objectives that are assigned to individuals in the team. So, they understand how I'm playing my part in helping the company deliver its goals. So, that all sits across the top of it. And you've got to continually revisit that, but you know where you're moving to. So, you've got some long-term distance thereof, where do we want to get to while balancing that with the short term, sometimes reactive, depending on this year in the example of COVID, market conditions have changed. So, we need to be able to react quickly to that.
Picking upon the quick decisions and adaptability, we can't have a conversation nowadays without covering off COVID-19 and what's happened this year. But I think even more so in your situation, because you completed the deal just one month before lock down. So, what challenges have you faced over the last six months? And is there anything of significance that you could share with our listeners in terms of how you've had to adapt or respond as a business or perhaps as an MD given what has happened?
For sure that not the best timing, not going to lie. Luckily, as I said, we were already worked in the business, so we knew the business very well and we knew the people within the business very well. But the first I suppose point of call was to say, right, let's just pause for a second. Where are we at as a business in terms of financial stability? That's the first part of how healthy is the business. Is there anything we need to be doing quickly to react to what in essence for some segments within the business wasn't a complete stop. So, we have several product ranges within Mansfield Pollard. The handling side suddenly went exceptionally busy because we work in the NHS and we supply what we call the HTMO three. It's like clean room specification-type work. And we had a huge influx of inquiries for emergency isolation wards.
So, we've got one section of business that's been exceptionally busy. We have another area, kitchen ventilation, which supplies callipers into hospitality and restaurant sector. And that dropped off a cliff overnight. So, the initial sort of shock of, right, okay. We're going into lockdown was to get together, sit down with the senior leadership team as a start point to say, okay, where are we? What do we need to do? Where do we need to look at things? And suddenly recognize that we've got some market segments that are moving faster, it's going to need more resource. So, we could look within the factory environment and start to pull people from one area to another because it's quieter in this area. We then also started to look at the market. What's happening to the market? What's happening with our customers? Are there any opportunities that this could bring?
And so, we have a UV product range called UVent, which is an air purifier. We designed, develop that ... I say we, this was Alan 10, 15 years ago, which is for the Ebola outbreak and SARS. Had all its independent testing done for Corona viruses as well. But there was an opportunity there which involved getting some key people from the business together as a task team to say, right, UVent, what are we going to do? How do we start marketing this out to key areas like the NHS? So, we saw real success there. And outside of doing the business fundamentals, it comes back to this point of communication. Suddenly we've gone from everybody being in an office together or the factory altogether to all the offices are working remotely. And that's met with mixed feelings. Some people can't wait and really love this idea of being able to work at home under their own steam.
And we had some real nervousness as well with people saying, this is impossible. We can't do this. I'm going to miss my paper and this and that, and this won't happen. So, you've got to manage that change with people. Get them on board with, how do you think it could work? What would you like to do? So, they feel part of resolving that issue. They're on board with it. And post the lockdown as we got into it, it was all about with the senior leadership team, with myself and Brian right from the top was, this is now about leadership. People need strong leadership. We need really clear ... The very first brief was over-communicate because people are not in the office. They will with time, as we found, particularly in this last month, start to feel a little bit detached from the company because they're not seeing the colleagues, and the information flow is not as easy.
So, making sure that we're doing regular updates, that we've got daily teams’ meetings, or with the senior leadership team. Tuesday, 9:00 was the senior leadership team weekly catch up on just how are things, how are you as an individual? How are we as a team? How are your teams operating to make sure that the communication is there and that if something isn't running properly, that we can elevate that quite quickly and people feel it's the right environment for it. We have company coffee afternoons, 3:00 on a Tuesday and a Friday. Everybody got on teams and we just had a catch up and it was nice. People were introducing the dog or the children. Everybody's going through a similar thing together. So just trying to keep people united while making sure we adapt the business, but certainly not without challenges. I'd be lying if I said it was straightforward. It's not. It's not.
I think everyone will concur with that. And actually, it's always interesting to find how people have looked at different ideas for bringing teams together. And ultimately it comes back to making sure that you're clear on your values on what the business is about. And so, if the rest of your team buy into those values and you live and breathe them, you're going to create that united front as well. And that you can bring everyone together and you're working towards the same goal.
It is. And I think it's making sure you're picking up the quieter ones in the team that perhaps don't want to say they're struggling or they're finding it hard. Or even within the senior leadership team we had leaders of areas that have got quite large teams and therefore they'd set up group WhatsApp chatting and team meetings. And actually we have a couple of individuals in the senior leadership team that don't have any direct reports. So, for those guys, we realized quite quickly in the early few weeks it was quite isolating for them because they weren't on a WhatsApp group chat with their own individual team members. Or they weren't being invited to team meetings other than the senior leadership team.
So, we highlighted a few of those quite quickly and added them into these WhatsApp groups, just so that they felt more inclusive and involved. It's okay those ... The noisy ones as I call them that will put their hand up and say, guess what, I'm struggling here. Or anybody fancy having a beer over a team’s meeting because I'm really struggling? But those that are quiet are the ones you've got to watch to make sure that they're getting the right support really, and feel that they can raise something if they're struggling.
Absolutely. And as a final point to finish on a positive note I guess, the reality is 2020 has been a challenging year, but there has also been a lot of opportunity for businesses to innovate, accelerate growth funds, perhaps expand customer base, depending on the sector. Do you feel that there are opportunities? And do you think that it has accelerated perhaps at the timeframe for innovation, particularly looking at your business and where you're going in the future?
For sure. We've been very fortunate that we have market segments that have increased phenomenally because of the pandemic, where other ones have perhaps got a little bit quieter. We've identified new market segments that we've moved into. So, we've been very fortunate there. We are very much looking over the next three years now for growth. We want to double the size of Mansfield Pollard over the next three years. That's heavily driven by a focus on development and R&D. And recognizing that we need to continue to evolve not just the product in our existing markets, but these new market segments as well.
We've got eight new apprentices starting at the end of this month. So, it's great to bring in some again of this next generation, this new talent into the business. They always bring new ideas. And very much for us investing and training the team and continuing to develop those guys. We're very much about succession planning. We like to try and recruit within before we externally recruit. And I think because we've a clear plan of where we're going, people can see what that might look like. And the final point we say is to have fun. You've got to enjoy what you do. You've got to enjoy going to work. So, we are very much that cliché of work hard, play hard, but we want people to enjoy working at Mansfield Pollard. And there's no reason over the next few years with the growth that there is and plenty of opportunities for people along the way.
Thank you so much for your time today Louise and for sharing those thoughts with us. Your drive and passion for the business is really evident. And we look forward to seeing what comes next for Mansfield Pollard. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Thank you.
So, that brings the fifth episode of the Exploring Family Business podcast with Mazars to a close. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe to the series and leave a review on iTunes. It will help us to extend our reach to the family business community so we can continue to share our knowledge and that of our guests. And if you'd like to know more about anything we've discussed today, I've detailed links in the show notes to Louise Frankland, and Mansfield Pollard along with our contact details.
Join me next week when I'll be interviewing Fiona Proudler, the CEO of The Yard, an independent marketing agency based in Scotland. Fiona has worked with a wide range of family businesses over recent years and has a particular focus on working with businesses who want to extend their international reach. We'll be discussing why understanding what your brand stands for and how you can demonstrate this as part of your overall marketing and digital strategy is key for every family business. Until then, thank you for listening.
You are listening to the Exploring Family Business podcast, brought to you by Mazars. A resource of insights, information, and knowledge-sharing from pharma business owners, their advisors, and key individuals involved in the day-to-day running of a family business. I am your host, Natalie Wright, head of family business at Mazars UK, and having worked at extensively with family businesses for a number of years and continues to support this valuable sector of our society. At Mazars, we believe there is nothing more personal than a family business. Every family and every business are unique. So, we look forward to sharing a number of interviews, conversations and panel discussions with you each week, as we explore what is top of the agenda for family businesses in the UK. Now onto this week's show. Hello, and welcome to the fifth episode of the Exploring Family Business podcast with Mazars. I'm your host, Natalie Wright.
And on this week's show, we'll be discussing the opportunities and challenges that come with buying a family business. Today I have the pleasure of interviewing Louise Frankland, the managing director of Mansfield Pollard, an engineering company based in Bradford that was until earlier this year, a third-generation family-owned business. Louise and her business partner, Brian Bentley joined forces to buyout the existing owners at the start of the year, and completed the deal just a month before the UK went into lockdown. Louise, thank you for joining me today. That was a really brief introduction from me, so would you mind explaining to our listeners who you are, your background and what led you to becoming the MD and co-owner of a business that's now celebrating its 154th year?
I will. Thank you for the introduction there, Natalie. So, as you stated, I'm the managing director. I joined Mansfield Pollard a few years before as the sales director. I came in to transform the sales, marketing and service side of the business. And prior to that, while Mansfield Pollard was a different market segment for me being in handling acoustics and kitchen ventilation, my prior background was actually in lighting. So, I worked for 16 years with my husband in a lighting company, an early adopter of LED technology.
So, the company was similar in route to market to Mansfield Pollard, but a completely different product. So, while I'm the outset it looked like a strange step to move from lighting into handling, actually it was a relatively straightforward and a relatively simple one. So, I came in as a sales director to look at how we could push for further growth, look at expanding into new markets here at MP. And then eventually over that time, there were some changes in the business. I moved into the role of managing director towards the end of 2019. And as you just mentioned, went through a management buyout at the start of 2020.
Thanks for that Louise. So, we will come on to Mansfield Pollard and what happened this year. But before we get to that, can we first talk about your experience in your previous business, because you mentioned you were in business with your husband for 16 years. So whilst it wasn't a family-run business so to speak, I'm sure you will have had to deal with many of the complexities that can arise when you are working with a member of family, not least because it was your husband. And what did that experience teach you about managing personal relationships, but whilst being able to still make clear and focused business decisions, especially if you didn't agree in certain scenarios?
I think for sure in any business that's going to happen. And it's certainly a different dynamic when there's some personal relationships there. So, for myself and my husband, we sort of grew up through that company. He joined in 1996, I joined in early 2000. And as I said earlier, we were this early adopter of LED technology going through significant growth in UK and export markets. And I grew my career there really moving into sales director in early 2011. So, for us working together, it was very much about having defined roles. And even when we came to buy the company, we went through a management buyout there in 2004 and sold later in 2015, I think with any business where you have family members, it's very important that you have clear roles, clear boundaries. And for us, what tended to work was, I don't want to say two personas because that's not quite that extreme, but you do have to separate home and work undoubtedly.
And it's the same in any business. A business needs a leader. It's not like a marriage where it's a partnership. It doesn't work that way. There needs to be a point in time where one person can say, this is going to be the direction that we're taking this decision in. And there needs to be that understanding of who's going to have that decision and actually be happy that that other person, if we can't reach an agreement that, that's the route that's taken because the business cannot afford to have two people, different views squabbling at the top if you like. So, for us, it was very much about defined roles and responsibilities, making sure that you do keep the two as separate as you can. That's not always possible. There are always times, if you've had a bad day, you both had a bad day. You're not going home to a partner that's perhaps had a good day in a different business.
And conversely, if you've had a good day, everybody's having a good day. So very much clear roles, having one person as that leader that makes the decision, which in this instance was my husband. And I think balancing it with the board as well. I think undoubtedly there's a different dynamic at board level if you've got a family member or two family members on that board, because you perhaps would often say things and be more open about saying things that you maybe wouldn't as non-related board members.
I think that's some really good points. And actually, I like the analogy of the partnership and the leadership. And one thing that you can find in family businesses, now it depends on the nature of the business and actually how many family members are involved, but almost having that fear of one person being the leader. It's not to say that that person will make every decision, but you do need some clear lines of leadership to make sure that decisions can be effective. And actually, that it's communicated to the rest of the team in the best way.
Absolutely. As a board, you are there to collectively bounce ideas around the table and everybody puts their opinion forward. But ultimately there is then a managing director or CEO that takes all those opinions on board. And if necessary, if there is some disagreement or discord aboard, they have to make a decision. And I don't think that's any different really from family-owned to running a non-family owned business.
So, making that proactive decision then to leave the business and to move into a new venture, it must've been quite a big step, especially because you and your husband had worked together for so long. So, what conversations did you have about how it might change the dynamics of your relationship after working together for such a long period of time?
I think it was mixed emotions for us both really. The role that I was then doing in the business was involving a lot of travel. So, I was traveling abroad and out of the UK a significant amount of time. So, that undoubtedly impacts the home dynamic of things because we've got two young children. And then you've also got the balance of when you've worked together for so long, you both know the business inside out. You know where you want to take it. And there's a nervousness of thinking, well, who's going to do that if I'm not there? So, lots of talking, lots of discussions. And ultimately, I think in my case, I probably was looking to be traveling less and moving into a different role a good year or two before I actually left. And it's partly that family tie and having worked together for so long that I think perhaps made me stay that extra year or two until eventually you talk and you both reach a decision of, this is what we're going to do.
It's daunting for sure for both of us, because my husband was used to having me there as a soundboard when he wants to ask things. And I was also thinking, well, what do I want to do next? And how is this going to feel being in a different business without him there? But it's open, clear communication. And actually for us on a personal note, it was actually much easier after I'd made the decision to go because we could get back on with life and having fun and talking about two different businesses then. And adding to each other's businesses rather than being within the same business all the time. So, it was a positive experience, but a challenging one at the time for sure.
I like that positive experience side of it. So, you can add something to each other because you're in separate businesses now. And actually, it wasn't just about you moving out of the business. It was also his role would have changed in terms of, you were used to working together so closely and bouncing ideas off each other directly on a day to-day basis that suddenly I'm guessing it became more strategic and perhaps change the conversations that you were having.
Absolutely. And even though I departed and moved on, you're still already intrinsically entwined in any business that you've been there for that length of time, but particularly because my husband was still there. Still always and do now feel very close to that business and want to know what's going on and how things are evolving. And the guy that I brought in to do my role was a breath of fresh air. And ready for the next level again about evolving and motivation and had a different life balance to me and was happy to go back to what I was doing in the early days before I had children, which is potentially being away two, three weeks on end right across the Middle East and far east. And that's what the business needed again. It needed the next person to be able to come in and give it that time and enthusiasm and motivation that it needed. I will always still now be interested and continue to be interested in what happens in that business and how it evolves.
Let's move to 2019 then. The initial discussions that took place with Alan, who I understand was the owner and chairman of Mansfield Pollard at the time. There was no next generation to pass that business onto was there? Or at least no one within the family who was in a position to take on the leadership and management. So how did the initial discussions start with yourself and your business partner, Brian, because I can imagine that there's a lot of individuals listening who perhaps want to engage in a discussion about succession and ultimately ownership, but they don't always know where to start or what options might be available.
Yeah, I think it was ... There was no, no secret in the fact that Alan was looking for somebody to take the company forward. As you say, there was nobody within his own family that was wanting to come in and continue with Mansfield Pollard. And it had been in Alan's family for almost 100 years. And there's lots of examples of these where there isn't a family member that can take on a company and continue to grow for a variety of reasons. So then naturally I anticipate as Alan was, looking for somebody who is, or a group of people who are aligned to his values and to the company that understands the business that wants to ... Now Alan calls us the next generation, which is a really nice way to put it, but wanting to find a group of people or an individual that can really drive the company forward and can continue to build on this fantastic brand and company that's been built over 154 years.
So, there was no secret that Alan with time was going to look for who's going to take that forward, and who's this person going to be, or who's the group of people going to be? And for us, in any business with whatever decision or subject matter that you need to discuss, without open, clear communication and being bold enough sometimes, or brave enough to be open and honest about what you're looking for as an individual in your future and where you want to be. And also, for somebody like Alan, that's an owner of the business. Brian's a great example that he'd come in as the operations director. And during that interview process was very clear in there's always that cliché question of, where do you want to be in five years’ time? But actually, it's a really important question because what do you want to do in five years’ time?
And what Brian had said from the very, very beginning was, I'm looking for a challenge. I'm looking to come in and transform operations, but actually as an individual, I want to find a permanent home. I want to be part of something. Again, it's about this clear communication. I'd obviously had some history from management buyouts and previous companies and was looking for this next challenge as well. And Alan was looking for this next generation as he calls it. So, it was a natural fit I suppose. It was quite an easy, straightforward conversation to have. But that first point of the conversation at the very, very beginning is, are we aligned in our values and our thought process as to where the business has gone, where we want to take it, and what we want to do as individuals? And the number one thing we've said through the process is trust. It's all about trust. Can we together build a trust that's there that is unbreakable, that we can be open and honest. And we've still said that now. I still catch up with Alan from time to time. We just recently had lunch. And there's no awkward moments, there are no difficulties. If we've got any questions, we say it as it is, and we trust each other. And I think that makes for a really great dynamic.
It's really nice to hear that it's his view as well, that he's passed it on to our next generation. So, it's not just how to be the next generation of his family. It's the business family almost. He brought you guys into the business to continue to grow it and make sure it's there for the longer term. And you are that next generation continuing it.
It is. It's being able to bring a different perspective I think, to a long-standing business with taking into account its history, but also looking at new ideas and how we can evolve it at the same time.
Obviously having the family name above the door and having moved to the third generation, there must have been to some extent some different conversations that perhaps took place when compared to the process that you went through when you exited your previous business. And letting go and separating family legacy can be a huge emotional hurdle to overcome for many families. Did they have any specific concerns around things like returning the name, branding employees, and how did you deal with maybe those conversations, very different to kind of financials and other things?
Yeah. I think that there is a legacy there. There's an experience there. For Brian and myself, there was never even a conversation of changing names or anything like that. I don't think Franklin Bentley has quite the same ring to it as Mansfield Pollard. The brand has been synonymous with quality and with our humbling and in its history for a very, very long time. And we are very proud of that. And I know that Alan's very proud of that. So, there was never a question that we would ever do anything as extreme as changing names and those types of things. And I think for Alan, Alan is proud to have that name above the door and proud of its history. And, and we talk about it still pops in every now and then and will tell me some fantastic stories of how he remembers, not just his 40 years in the business, but he remembers his father running it and he remembers his grandfather running it.
So, for us, we're very respectful of that, because that respect is well-due given its length of time that it's been around and how successful it's been. But as I touched on, it's also about looking at bringing new ideas in and saying, how can we continue to evolve the businesses around us, our competitors, our market segments, our clients, everything is changing more than ever in particular this year, but we need to make sure that we put the business in the best possible position to adapt to that. So, it's about looking at the teams of people and looking at where we think they can take it. That clear communication is important. That's always there. And I think going through the type of change where you go from a management buyout, where perhaps we have a family member or it's changing hands, it's particularly important to be communicating that internally to staff that have been, we've got longstanding members here of 30, 35 years surveys. 20,25.
I'm looking around the office now with people in here of 15, 20 years. So, they remember the days where Alan worked in the business with his brother Barrett. And it's about communicating to those guys what our vision is for the business, and how there can be part of it, and part of setting out where we want to go. And equally externally as well, things like suppliers, and other key people within the chain that made Mansfield Pollard the company it is. You need to make sure that we're communicating that message externally as well, to make sure that people are aware of the changes and why we're changing it. And hopefully why it's going to continue to be successful.
It's evident from everything that you've said so far that trust and clear communication have really been essential to create that smooth transition from a family-owned business to now becoming a privately-owned business. Could you share some thoughts with our listeners on maybe how you focused on those two areas to ensure that the transition was a success from both sides?
Sure. I think that trust is the number one. It's fundamental. And that comes from an openness and an honesty and integrity is the core values [inaudible 00:17:14]. Some of those main ones are integrity and honesty. It's being able to say what you're going to do. And most importantly, stick to it. And that's what I've built my career on, right the way through my prior lighting career and here is if you're going to do something then, and make sure that you do it, make sure you're open and honest about how you feel. And once you do that, if people talk about length of time it takes to build trust and how it can be broken so fast, it's really important that that doesn't happen. And I think it’s clear communication from the start. So, with Alan, having those open honest conversations about where we are, what we would like to do with the business, where we see the future of it and the same for Alan also his, expectations.
And then the communication side was really about making sure everybody has sat down. We've talked not only about the business and where the business is going, but more often than not teams of people are often sat there thinking, what does this mean to me? It's a natural thing for somebody to sit there. They're not really interested at the start of the business side. It's what does it mean for me, is my job secure? What changes is it going to make? What other opportunities for me? So, it's mapping that out clearly. And I think you're never going to have answers to every single question, but you need to have answers to at least 80 to 90% of them. So, when we announced the management buyout, it was very much an open forum. Everybody from the business was in one room. There was Alan, Brian, myself, all talked about the management buyout and why we're doing it. What it meant for the business and where we were trying to take it.
But then we at the end of that, we did look, has anybody got any questions? And there was a few, but people often when you've got 150, 160 people, they don't want to put their hand up to ask a question. So, we said, look, we're now staying around to [inaudible 00:19:02], come and talk to us. And that was the time that we then spent probably another hour and a half, two hours all in one big room, having some sandwiches. And that type of informal environment where people can come over and say, well, what about this? What about that? And what I found was quite interesting in that phase was actually, we've got people coming over saying, I've got this idea and I've got that idea. And we've been thinking about this. And we've been thinking about that because I think there had been a nervousness from them of, what's next?
We knew that Alan wasn't getting any younger without being rude and say that he was sat here. So, I think they're also thinking, well, what happens next? And so suddenly it was fantastic to have people coming over saying, can we talk about this? And can we talk about that? And again, making sure you follow up with that. So yes, let's put some time in the diary to talk about this, or let's pick that back up. And make sure that you do pick that back up. Don't just nod your head, yes, and then it disappears off the radar. You want people to sort of buy into this and understand where we're going and how they can be part of it. You need to make sure you pick up on that stuff.
I guess it's about embracing the change and looking at the positives, isn't it? We often find that as individuals, we intrinsically don't like change that much, but if you're talking openly and you're giving people a forum to actually come forward and say, if you've got concerns or if you've got ideas, let's talk about it openly. And let's look at how we can affect change together and actually make sure that it's for the benefit of everyone. You obviously gave them that platform to do it.
I had the added benefit as well that I'd already been in the business three years prior. Brian had been in the business just over 12 months. So, they'd seen the impact that Brian had brought in operations and with those changes and that we were listening. And they knew me as well already. So, you've already got that base level of communication, openness and trust that they can build on. So, it was slightly easier for us I suppose, than somebody completely new coming in that they don't know. They don't have any relationship with. Maybe it would have been trickier, I suppose. But we certainly had that benefit [inaudible 00:21:02] and we'd worked in the business.
I think that's a fair point. And also vice versa. You had from your perspective, you were able to actually recognize who was in the business, where people added value, what roles maybe they could have in the future. And it gave you some time to possibly analyse that from almost a one step removed before you actually became the owners. So, that probably helped ...
Absolutely. And I think you know ... I know every individual. So, you know those that will be quite happy to put their hand up in a room and ask a question. Those that might come to you later. And conversely, those that you know will worry, that won't necessarily come to you, then you make the effort to go and talk to them and say, what do you think? Or how do you find this? There's absolutely a benefit there as well, yes.
So, we know that pharma businesses tend to have a focus on sustainability, and by the very nature of moving through generations they do focus on the longer term rather than being solely reactive to current events and the short term. But from your experience, have you found it beneficial when you were thinking about buying into the business and where you could take it in the future?
For sure. There are benefits to both sides. With a family business you have that legacy, you have that experience. As I mentioned, I've met with Alan this week to have lunch with him. And we'll talk about things that are happening in the market now. And he will often say, have you thought about X, Y, and Zed? Or it could be 10 years ago, it might be 20 years ago, but there are things that are still relevant because he's lived through a variety of different changes over that time. So, there's a benefit there to the family business and the experience. And I think as an SME family-type business, you do as you say have the option to make decisions that are based more long-term. We don't always have to be as snappy short term, quick return, private equity back-type scenarios, so there's benefit there.
But there's also the opportunity to again, as an SME, having gone myself, I've worked in SMEs and then gone up to corporate and then come gone back into SME because that's where I like to be. And the reason I like that is you can make quick decisions when you need to. You can sit around a board table as we do now. And it's the people in that boardroom at the time that will make the decision. And we can say, right, we're thinking of moving into this market, or we're thinking of investing in this area. And as long as there's a clear, strong business case, they press the button and you get on with it. My previous experience in corporate world was somewhat longer than that. A lot more processes and hoops to jump through, several PowerPoints passed up the chain and back down again. So, there are benefits to both.
You don't have to make that short-term decision immediately because you've got this experience, you've got this legacy and you've got a longer-term decision-making process. But equally, when you need to react quickly in the cases of what's happening this year with the economy, actually you can do that. You can get together and say, right, we're making this decision, and this is what we're doing. I think ultimately with every business, the key thing that arches over the top of all of this is just having a really clearly defined business plan. It's sitting down at the start, we have a business plan three to five years of where we want to be, not just from a turnover and profitability perspective, but also around staff engagement. We want to be the best employer in the region, customer satisfaction, cost of quality. And each of those metrics across the company break down into individual business plans.
So, there's a finance plan, a sales plan, a marketing plan, et cetera. And they go further within the teams then. So, if we look at a sales plan or a marketing plan, there's certain key aspects of those goals and objectives that are assigned to individuals in the team. So, they understand how I'm playing my part in helping the company deliver its goals. So, that all sits across the top of it. And you've got to continually revisit that, but you know where you're moving to. So, you've got some long-term distance thereof, where do we want to get to while balancing that with the short term, sometimes reactive, depending on this year in the example of COVID, market conditions have changed. So, we need to be able to react quickly to that.
Picking upon the quick decisions and adaptability, we can't have a conversation nowadays without covering off COVID-19 and what's happened this year. But I think even more so in your situation, because you completed the deal just one month before lock down. So, what challenges have you faced over the last six months? And is there anything of significance that you could share with our listeners in terms of how you've had to adapt or respond as a business or perhaps as an MD given what has happened?
For sure that not the best timing, not going to lie. Luckily, as I said, we were already worked in the business, so we knew the business very well and we knew the people within the business very well. But the first I suppose point of call was to say, right, let's just pause for a second. Where are we at as a business in terms of financial stability? That's the first part of how healthy is the business. Is there anything we need to be doing quickly to react to what in essence for some segments within the business wasn't a complete stop. So, we have several product ranges within Mansfield Pollard. The handling side suddenly went exceptionally busy because we work in the NHS and we supply what we call the HTMO three. It's like clean room specification-type work. And we had a huge influx of inquiries for emergency isolation wards.
So, we've got one section of business that's been exceptionally busy. We have another area, kitchen ventilation, which supplies callipers into hospitality and restaurant sector. And that dropped off a cliff overnight. So, the initial sort of shock of, right, okay. We're going into lockdown was to get together, sit down with the senior leadership team as a start point to say, okay, where are we? What do we need to do? Where do we need to look at things? And suddenly recognize that we've got some market segments that are moving faster, it's going to need more resource. So, we could look within the factory environment and start to pull people from one area to another because it's quieter in this area. We then also started to look at the market. What's happening to the market? What's happening with our customers? Are there any opportunities that this could bring?
And so, we have a UV product range called UVent, which is an air purifier. We designed, develop that ... I say we, this was Alan 10, 15 years ago, which is for the Ebola outbreak and SARS. Had all its independent testing done for Corona viruses as well. But there was an opportunity there which involved getting some key people from the business together as a task team to say, right, UVent, what are we going to do? How do we start marketing this out to key areas like the NHS? So, we saw real success there. And outside of doing the business fundamentals, it comes back to this point of communication. Suddenly we've gone from everybody being in an office together or the factory altogether to all the offices are working remotely. And that's met with mixed feelings. Some people can't wait and really love this idea of being able to work at home under their own steam.
And we had some real nervousness as well with people saying, this is impossible. We can't do this. I'm going to miss my paper and this and that, and this won't happen. So, you've got to manage that change with people. Get them on board with, how do you think it could work? What would you like to do? So, they feel part of resolving that issue. They're on board with it. And post the lockdown as we got into it, it was all about with the senior leadership team, with myself and Brian right from the top was, this is now about leadership. People need strong leadership. We need really clear ... The very first brief was over-communicate because people are not in the office. They will with time, as we found, particularly in this last month, start to feel a little bit detached from the company because they're not seeing the colleagues, and the information flow is not as easy.
So, making sure that we're doing regular updates, that we've got daily teams’ meetings, or with the senior leadership team. Tuesday, 9:00 was the senior leadership team weekly catch up on just how are things, how are you as an individual? How are we as a team? How are your teams operating to make sure that the communication is there and that if something isn't running properly, that we can elevate that quite quickly and people feel it's the right environment for it. We have company coffee afternoons, 3:00 on a Tuesday and a Friday. Everybody got on teams and we just had a catch up and it was nice. People were introducing the dog or the children. Everybody's going through a similar thing together. So just trying to keep people united while making sure we adapt the business, but certainly not without challenges. I'd be lying if I said it was straightforward. It's not. It's not.
I think everyone will concur with that. And actually, it's always interesting to find how people have looked at different ideas for bringing teams together. And ultimately it comes back to making sure that you're clear on your values on what the business is about. And so, if the rest of your team buy into those values and you live and breathe them, you're going to create that united front as well. And that you can bring everyone together and you're working towards the same goal.
It is. And I think it's making sure you're picking up the quieter ones in the team that perhaps don't want to say they're struggling or they're finding it hard. Or even within the senior leadership team we had leaders of areas that have got quite large teams and therefore they'd set up group WhatsApp chatting and team meetings. And actually we have a couple of individuals in the senior leadership team that don't have any direct reports. So, for those guys, we realized quite quickly in the early few weeks it was quite isolating for them because they weren't on a WhatsApp group chat with their own individual team members. Or they weren't being invited to team meetings other than the senior leadership team.
So, we highlighted a few of those quite quickly and added them into these WhatsApp groups, just so that they felt more inclusive and involved. It's okay those ... The noisy ones as I call them that will put their hand up and say, guess what, I'm struggling here. Or anybody fancy having a beer over a team’s meeting because I'm really struggling? But those that are quiet are the ones you've got to watch to make sure that they're getting the right support really, and feel that they can raise something if they're struggling.
Absolutely. And as a final point to finish on a positive note I guess, the reality is 2020 has been a challenging year, but there has also been a lot of opportunity for businesses to innovate, accelerate growth funds, perhaps expand customer base, depending on the sector. Do you feel that there are opportunities? And do you think that it has accelerated perhaps at the timeframe for innovation, particularly looking at your business and where you're going in the future?
For sure. We've been very fortunate that we have market segments that have increased phenomenally because of the pandemic, where other ones have perhaps got a little bit quieter. We've identified new market segments that we've moved into. So, we've been very fortunate there. We are very much looking over the next three years now for growth. We want to double the size of Mansfield Pollard over the next three years. That's heavily driven by a focus on development and R&D. And recognizing that we need to continue to evolve not just the product in our existing markets, but these new market segments as well.
We've got eight new apprentices starting at the end of this month. So, it's great to bring in some again of this next generation, this new talent into the business. They always bring new ideas. And very much for us investing and training the team and continuing to develop those guys. We're very much about succession planning. We like to try and recruit within before we externally recruit. And I think because we've a clear plan of where we're going, people can see what that might look like. And the final point we say is to have fun. You've got to enjoy what you do. You've got to enjoy going to work. So, we are very much that cliché of work hard, play hard, but we want people to enjoy working at Mansfield Pollard. And there's no reason over the next few years with the growth that there is and plenty of opportunities for people along the way.
Thank you so much for your time today Louise and for sharing those thoughts with us. Your drive and passion for the business is really evident. And we look forward to seeing what comes next for Mansfield Pollard. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Thank you.
So, that brings the fifth episode of the Exploring Family Business podcast with Mazars to a close. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe to the series and leave a review on iTunes. It will help us to extend our reach to the family business community so we can continue to share our knowledge and that of our guests. And if you'd like to know more about anything we've discussed today, I've detailed links in the show notes to Louise Frankland, and Mansfield Pollard along with our contact details.
Join me next week when I'll be interviewing Fiona Proudler, the CEO of The Yard, an independent marketing agency based in Scotland. Fiona has worked with a wide range of family businesses over recent years and has a particular focus on working with businesses who want to extend their international reach. We'll be discussing why understanding what your brand stands for and how you can demonstrate this as part of your overall marketing and digital strategy is key for every family business. Until then, thank you for listening.