In the final episode of the series, Natalie is joined by Chris Black, the MD and second generation of award-winning Sound Leisure. The family-owned business based in Leeds are one of only two traditional jukebox manufacturers in the world. Natalie and Chris discuss the every day dynamics of running a family business, the skills needed as well as introducing the next generation into the mix so the business can adapt, thrive and focus on long term growth.
Entering into the family business and the experience it offers – 3m 30
It can be difficult to know what you want to do in life as a career and for Chris, he was toying with the idea of becoming a painter and decorator. However, plans changed when his father stepped in to offer him a 6-week placement that turned into a 34-year long career, offering experience from factory work to sales to customer relations.
Family dynamics – 11m
If one sibling is allowed to go and have a career out with the family business then join in later years, while the other has worked their way up the family business ladder, can this cause resentment? Or does it actually help provide different perspectives and skill sets?
Taking on the parent’s business role – 15m 50
Becoming the MD or essentially the face of the business isn’t an overnight occurrence. Instead, it is a continuous process of learning and gaining insight and experience of others to help push the business forward.
Bringing in the next generation – 20m 50
It’s a good idea to understand the next generation’s skills and what they can bring to the business. Is there a gap in the business where help is needed and if so, can you train them to be the right fit?
What skills will the next generation bring to the family business? 24m 50
The future will bring more automation, digital and updated machinery but in terms of people, common sense is something that is vital, so you have a basic starting point. From there, skills can be developed along the way.
Join the family business or have your own career? 27m
A lot of time, the next generation in line will go off to university and create their own path by working for someone else. However, Chris notes that a lot of the time, the next generation will miss the feel of the family business and come back to it. Regardless, of where someone may end up, it’s important to understand your purpose, the purpose of the business and whether it will be the right path for you.
How to manage family conflict – 33m 10
Having space throughout the day can help separate family and business as everyone will be attending to their own roles. As well as this, it’s important to remain calm, relaxed and work as best you can to have a successful workday with the family.
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In 2018, we launched our first Family Business survey in partnership with Family Business United. The survey revealed the challenges, opportunities and issues that family businesses are facing on a daily basis. And whilst the specific detail may change because of external factors, such as Brexit and now the global pandemic, it became clear that there are a number of issues that family businesses will always face, so we wanted to continue with our research in 2019 with a second survey and our 2020 survey will be published this Autumn.
To view the Family Business Survey 2019, click here
To request a copy of the Family Business survey when it is released, click here
Natalie Wright: Thank you. Hello and welcome to the eighth episode of our Exploring Family Business podcast with Mazars. I'm your host, Natalie Wright, and in the final episode of our first series, we're going to be discussing the next generation. Taking on or becoming part of the family business is a major decision, and for some, it's an even bigger challenge, not just from [00:00:30] a business and financial perspective, but also when it comes to thinking about personal relationships with family members, both inside and outside of the business, and also colleagues. But as we see businesses move between generations, and with a focus on rapid change, now largely centered around changing habits and the introduction of technology, we do expect to see more conversations taking place as family businesses consider their plans for the longer term.
And many of our listeners will have been the next generation at some [00:01:00] point, and others may be in that position now. So this week we want to talk about the experience of taking over the reins of the family business. How do you start the conversations about future leadership? And what planning should you undertake, and what could, and often does for some, go wrong?
Today I'm joined by Chris Black, the MD and second generation of award-winning Sound Leisure. The family-owned business is based in Leeds and is one of only two traditional jukebox manufacturers in the world. [00:01:30] Chris, do you want to start by telling us about the business and which members of your family are currently still involved?
Chris Black: Hello Natalie. Yes. Obviously I'm here. I've been with the business 34 years. My father set the business up back in 1978, so we're now 42nd year at the moment. I work alongside my brother, Michael, who's been with the business for about 20 years. He'll probably tell me off for getting that wrong. It might have been 22, but we'll go with 20 for now. [00:02:00] My eldest son also works here, and my wife works here as well. So, there's quite a lot of our family here, and we also work alongside, possibly, I think there's another six or seven families within the business as well. So it's not just our family. We like keeping it all in the family and employing a lot of other families as well.
Natalie Wright: So, a very true family affair then.
Chris Black: Yeah, yeah. Obviously the majority of our business are we're mainly known for [00:02:30] manufacturing the classic jukeboxes that we ship all around the world. We also have a children's player division that supplies entertainment areas, or destruction areas, as we call them, mainly to the NHS, supermarkets, pub chains, basically everything that's been hit by COVID over the past six or eight months. And we also then operate jukeboxes around pubs up and down the country, and we have an R&D team that [00:03:00] offer their services, not only for internal development, but to external companies as well. So we've got a varied workforce and a very varied work life, really, because we don't know what we're doing everyday when we come in. There's always something going on in one of the divisions.
Natalie Wright: Sounds like you've got lots going on. Now more than ever, I imagine. So, you mentioned that you've been in the business for 34 years, Chris.
Chris Black: Yes.
Natalie Wright: And do you want to just tell us about how you came to be involved in the business? Because [00:03:30] I believe it was a bit more... A traditional route, I guess, in the sense that there was a family business there, there was a role available, and the family wanted you to come in. But can you just tell us a bit about that?
Chris Black: Well, I think to start off with, you can say that I wasn't very academic. Didn't particularly get on well with school. I was never thrown out or anything like that, I muddled my way through. But I had no desire once I got to 16 to do any further education. [00:04:00] I'm more of a hands-on type of person. I actually intended becoming a painter and a decorator or going down that line. So, when I finished my exams when I was 16... I've known about the business all my life. My father set the business at when I was eight. And I remember going down there. Well, we've got pictures around the building and me in me shorts playing in the car park when it was all being set up. So I've known the business from day one. [00:04:30] And I used to work in school holidays, Saturdays. Being a family business, everybody gets thrown end up. I mean, if you're seen sat down having five minutes, somebody says to you, "Come on, get yourself to work. You've got to be doing something."
So I grew up with the business. When I left school, I remember driving down York Road in Leeds with my mom and dad, saying I'm going to do an apprenticeship or do the painting and decorating. [00:05:00] And so my dad said, "Look, that's all right, but for the school holidays, I do need you to come. We're busy. And I want you to come and have a look at what's involved with the business. We've got woodwork and metalwork, and you can do electronics. You can do cabinet making. You name it. There's sales, there's engineering. There's so much within the business. Why don't you come and work for six weeks and give us a hand, and just see if there's anything you want to stay to do." And 35 years later, I'm still here [00:05:30] and it's been a long summer holiday, really.
And that was it. I love every day of it. Totally enjoy what we're doing and it's such a special business to be involved with. Very unique, as you've already mentioned. There's always something going on, and like with any businesses, it's not all good news. There's always a crisis going on somewhere, with manufacturing especially in current times at the minute. Suppliers, et cetera. You're trying to bring [00:06:00] stuff in at 100 miles an hour just to try and keep up with the demand that we've got at the moment. So, there's always something going on, but there's a real buzz about it as well and that's what I really love. And working alongside my wife, Michael, my dad. My mom used to work here. She retired when we had kids, me and Cath, so we could carry on working. But yeah, it's something I've always probably been destined to do without knowing it. And I'm pleased [00:06:30] I was given the opportunity and I really enjoy it.
Natalie Wright: And can you tell us then about the experience that you had? Obviously you came into the business and from what you've said, you've probably been involved in every aspect of the business as well, from sweeping up and working at a workbench and everything.
Chris Black: Yeah, in the early days, everybody in the factory who I used to work with when I first joined... We've still got a lot of the team here that were there when [00:07:00] I first came. But they still say my most important job is the first one I had, which was the tea [bar 00:07:04]. So I soon learnt how to make 35 cups of tea a day and what sandwiches everybody had, and et cetera. But in between making tea, I joined the dispatch area. So it was literally packing the machines for them to go out. Then I joined the [stores 00:07:22]. Then as I became 18 I could drive and go into pubs. I joined the operating division, which is [00:07:30] where I then learnt the mechanics, and literally going into the pubs and installing the machines, running all that side of the business with Ralph, who was with us then.
And then progressed into sales, which the operating division gave me a great grounding in that because I literally understood the product. I understood the factory side because I've worked in that. So when I was going out to, I don't know, Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand, wherever we were selling to around the world, I could sit down [00:08:00] in front of customers and understand what their issues were and how our machines could solve the problem, or what would fit well with their locations. So that gave me a great understanding. And I'm quite a firm believer that for people to work through the family business, the dual need to understand all the aspects of it. Because I don't know if it probably gives you a bit more compassion with the people who are doing what you used to do. And you also know when somebody is trying to lift your leg as well, because you've done it yourself.
So [00:08:30] I think it's a good thing. It's not the only way to get into a business, obviously. Michael, my brother, went to university. He came in from a different angle. He wasn't going to work for the business. He really ended up here. He did traveling and he went to Australia once he'd finished university. But when he came back, once again, it was one of those family discussions. My dad sat down and said, "Look, really, you've got to now get on with your life. [00:09:00] It's great being a player boy, but you've got to get stuck in again now." So Michael joined, and he got a first degree at Sheffield University on design. So once again for the business it was great, because Michael had an understanding of the design aspect and he was able to come in and take some pressure off my father, especially with the digital jukeboxes at that time.
My dad was very mechanical, so he was used to the old vinyl mechanisms and the early CD mechanisms. [00:09:30] But then as we moved towards the digital machines that you've seen in the pubs, it was a completely different mindset and just a different set of capabilities that you needed to make a jukebox. It was a computer and a touchscreen, whereas my dad was springs and motors and mechanics. So it came at the right time, so that worked really well. It gave us another dimension to the business. And even to the day now, as [00:10:00] I said, Michael helped develop the early machines for digital, which were a true success. We really took the world on with those.
But now obviously we're spending more of our time on the classic machines and putting a lot more of investment into there. And that's the way we see the business heading long-term. Because of what's going on, there's less and less hospitality open at the moment and [00:10:30] we think people are starting to get used to building, I don't know, sheds in the back garden, turning the rooms into bars and pool rooms, et cetera. And obviously that fits in perfectly to what we've been doing for 40 years. But we can now expand the range and drive that side further.
Natalie Wright: Yeah, absolutely. And it's really interesting, actually, to listen to the real different experiences obviously that you and your brother have had.
Chris Black: Yeah.
Natalie Wright: And how did that work then, if you don't mind me asking, both [00:11:00] from a family perspective, but also a business perspective. Was there any kind of resentment that he'd been able to go out, forge a career and then come back, or that you were made MD? Did he actually help you with strategic planning?
Chris Black: I think it's good to have people that have come from different angles, if you want, or have had different experiences. So, I have not had any experience outside of Sound Leisure. So, [00:11:30] everything I've learned has been within the business and from the people around me in the business, whether it's my father or any of the older managers or the people that were here when I was younger. So, I've had probably an insular experience, that it's all been from Sound Leisure within. Although, as I said, I've seen lots of the world and we've dealt with many different countries and people. And oh, there's so many different sectors, [00:12:00] it's unbelievable. So I think I've got a good grounding on that side.
Michael came from more of an academic side, so he's got the influence of that. So I don't think there's any animosity from either side. I probably work a little bit longer because I'm the hands-on type of guy, but doing the stuff Michael does, he deals with the solicitors and he deals with a lot of the accounts and the R&D [clans 00:00:12:25], and all the stuff that would drive me insane. It probably drives Michael [00:12:30] a bit crazy as well, but likewise, he wouldn't want to jump on the back of a container and load that when we're stuck. So there's pluses and minuses for both sides, and at the end of the day you get on with it. And we're not all throwing bricks at each other in the car park at the end of the night. It's just like everybody, you have good days, you have bad days, but we're all still family and we can still go for a pint afterwards, when you're allowed.
So yeah, I don't think there's any animosity. I [00:13:00] think the goal is, like with anything, it's teamwork. Whether it's the family, or if it's the directors, or if it's the guys on the shop floor picking the bits or building the machines, whatever, if one of us lets the team down, we're all going down. And I think that's something that's really been highlighted on this last six months, that we've had to adapt, and we've had to change, and we've had to innovate, and we've had to move quickly over this last six [00:13:30] months. And we've had a great time. It's been fantastic. I mean, it's not been without its problems, like everybody else. Probably drunk a bit more than I should when I've gone home on a night, just to calm down. But once again, it's been fun and it's shown a lot of the character of the whole team, not just the family that we've got within here, over the last six months. And that's what carries you through.
And with a family business especially, I think that's got to [00:14:00] penetrate from the family all the way through the business, because sometimes you do need to lean on people a bit more than usual and ask for their help. And you can't always pay them for it. But they also know then that when the good times come back, they get rewarded. And we all do well together or we all go down together type of thing. And that's the spirit that we've got and that's something we've been looking to maintain.
Natalie Wright: I always feel like your passion always comes across [00:14:30] so well whenever you talk about the business. It's always really nice to hear. And I think a couple of points that you brought up there about really working to your strengths is key, isn't it? So, you and Michael obviously have different skill sets, and knowing how you can not just benefit the business, but also benefit the wider team and bringing your skill sets in, strengthening those.
Chris Black: I think so, because you can't be good at everything. Gosh, some of the stuff I look at that we've done over the years, we've punched well [00:15:00] above our weight for a long, long time. And some of the people we've had in the team, it's unbelievable what they've come up with. And we can't as a family have all that. You've got to have experience from other areas and sectors. Some of the design team we've got either on the electronic side or the mechanical drawing side, et cetera, you look at some of the guys and think "Why are you working here? You could be doing something really good." But there's obviously something about the place [00:15:30] that people like to come to. And obviously, the jukeboxes are cool. I mean, you can't not enjoy being involved with designing them, selling them, getting involved with the customers that are buying them. It's a fun business and it's something that brings fun and enjoyment to other people. So, if you can't get that right, there's something wrong.
Natalie Wright: And so, your move to the managing director then, was that an automatic [00:16:00] transition from your father to you? Can you tell us a bit more about maybe how things might have changed between you as father and son over that period, as you became, I guess, leader of the business and taking it forward? And if there was any kind of changes with how the team saw you in that point as well.
Chris Black: Wow. If you know my father, he's quite a shy back room type person. [00:16:30] So, he's not into shouting from the rooftops about what he does or what we do. It pushed me into a position, if you want, where I would be that person where I had to be the front of the business with the sales team, and especially with the retail sector that we were in at the time back in the early 2000s. My dad likes being in the factory. It's his tie shop. He's got 80,000 square feet that he can go in and ask anybody to build anything or develop something or [00:17:00] work on something. So, that's what he wants to do. He doesn't want to be sat in meetings. He doesn't want to be traveling up and down to London or anywhere in the world.
So what it became more initially, was that I'd be the face of the business. And that's what I was brought through to be so that I could get out there, see people, meet people, and then it gave me some authority when we were seeing people and I was talking to people about business. And then it's a gradual changeover it. It wasn't "Oh, [00:17:30] well on Friday you're becoming MD." We did it as a gradual process. And I'm still learning now. And we still talk to other people and discuss things, and we've got the accountants here. We've got the people at your place that we hassle all the time and say, "What do you think about this?" You've just got to draw on the experience of other people as well. And as I say, it wasn't a cutoff or an on and off button. It's something [00:18:00] that's a continuous process of learning and we're just all trying to do the best we can, really.
Natalie Wright: I think that's really nice to hear, actually, that honesty about you are still learning. You've been in the business 34 years and still learning, actually, it's a big thing for someone to say. Because we often see someone leading a business in your kind of role, and it's easy to think it just comes naturally and you just know everything and how to do it perfectly. But having that honest discussion to say, "Actually, I don't. I might need [00:18:30] help with..." whether it's leadership skills, managing people, finances, whatever it is, that care. And actually, that's how you get your best out of your business and your team.
Chris Black: Yeah, and I think it's not just at my level or any of, as I said, the family's level. It's throughout the business. Everybody's learning. I hate when people don't try things differently or just give something a go. During COVID we've been manufacturing all sorts of things that I can't talk about because I'm under NDAs. [00:19:00] But the first week we came in and we have to build X amount, well, the first day I think we built 26 and the target was to do 50. And the team that we had in, initially it drove them crazy. After the first day they were like, "This is impossible. We can't do all this." So we sat down at the end of the day and said, "Right, I'll go home. We're having a meeting in the morning." Came in the next morning, "What are we going to change? How can we do it?" And I walked around with them, Cath walked round with them. I said, "Right. [00:19:30] If we do all this and we do all that, we think we'll get an increase."
So the second day I think they made 35. By the end of the week, we were up to 50. And gradually, each day we improved and improved and improved. And I think since we've done this project and then we've come back into what of course is our normal everyday business, it's amazing how many of that team that were in there are now looking at what they did, or what they're doing now. Saying, "If we did it this way, we think we can save half an hour and it won't [00:20:00] have any detriment on anything." Or, "If we do it this way, we can save, I don't know, 50 quid," or whatever. And it's been this process of being able to sit down with people and say, "Look, if it goes wrong, it doesn't matter. We can go back to how we used to do it. But let's just try it. Don't be scared to try it. Nobody's going to jump upon you."
I hate it when people won't give things a go. And if somebody said to me you can't do something, I'll try my utmost to prove them wrong. I will go 100% [00:20:30] to prove them that I can do it, or we can do it as a business. Because I don't like failure and I don't like to give up on anything. And I think that's probably my driving thing, that let's just get on with it. If somebody says no, that's the worst thing you could ever say to me, because it's my bugbear. It should be, "Yes." You might not know how you're going to do it, but let's just get on with it.
Natalie Wright: You'll prove them wrong.
Chris Black: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Natalie Wright: And if we think ahead then to your children and next [00:21:00] generation of the business, I understand your son Alex now works in the business. So do you mind just explaining to us how did the conversation come about thinking about Alex coming in? And did you have any concerns, both as a father, I guess, and as an MD of the business about bringing him in? And do you think he might have had any concerns?
Chris Black: Yeah. Look, I think there's probably a couple of schools of thought on this one, because a lot of family businesses... Like [00:21:30] we've said, you need experience from outside the family. I think a family business at the end of the day is you putting enough effort in and enough hours. I mean, we all work harder than we should do. We probably take less out than we should do. There's more to it than the money. And if you can't look after your own family, what are you doing it for at the end of the day? So Alex is a very similar person to what I was when I was his age, so [00:22:00] it feels a bit like a bit of a repeat. We've got a younger son as well, Edward. He's like Michael. He was like the brains.
So Alex is, he'll get up, he'll work 25 hours a day, he'll go out and meet people, he'll talk to them. Everybody loves him. So, it was one of these things where we're thinking, "Really, we need to start to look after Alex a bit now, and try and give him a career." He wasn't interested in school. He's a great photographer, and he does [00:22:30] photography and he gets involved with that. But we wanted to bring him in. And we saw a gap in the business where we needed some help, so we brought him in. What we are trying to do with him is, we're putting him into university on an apprenticeship course in management. However, that's been put back until January. So, you try.
But I think it's just one of those things where we know that... I looked at it from a parent's point of view and the business [00:23:00] point of view. If I thought he was going to come in and absolutely bomb, I couldn't have brought him in because it's not fair to everybody else in the business. I brought him in because I know he's a good lad. He's caring and he's honest and won't let customers down, which is the side that we're wanting to bring him into. And I think he'll do good. He's standing up for himself. So whether some people might say, "Well, you shouldn't bring family in just because it's family." But as I say, I go back to that initial thing where it's a family business. [00:23:30] The whole business is about families. And we try and look after each other, whether it's our family or the family as a whole.
Natalie Wright: Absolutely. And from what you've said, it's as long as you're honest with each other about where your skills are. And actually, they might be your strengths right now, but you've already said, looking at management degree for him. So that will help him create that skill set as well, from quite an early stage in his career, which will be [inaudible 00:23:54]
Chris Black: Yeah, that's right. He's 20, so he's still quite young, but he's [00:24:00] still got the get-up-and-go. During the lockdown, he was out with me driving to Cornwall and back in a day, and stuff like that when we had no team here in the early days. He's got stuck in. I'm really pleased with what he's done. And as I said, his brother, he'll go off to university. Supposedly going next year. Once again, we'll see what happens. But Edward will go out and forge his own route, and if he does, that's great. And if he wants to come into the business at a later stage, even better, [00:24:30] if he doesn't find he can go do what he wants to do. So it's not just because you bomb. It's not like royalty. You don't have to be in it. Well, you don't anyway now, obviously. It's just a journey for everybody, and they can pick and choose what they want to do, really.
Natalie Wright: Definitely. And I know this will differ from sector to sector, but what specific skills can you see that the next [00:25:00] generation can bring in which will actually be able to help family businesses now over the longer term?
Chris Black: It is a difficult one, that. Because really, the skills... If you look at what Alex is doing, which is management, which we want to put him in down that line, just so he gets some understanding. But we're also keeping him on the shop floor at the moment, so he's getting both aspects of what's going on. But I think there's so much going on. I mean, wow. This year, [00:25:30] I don't know where it's gone this year. It's been like a light year. Obviously, anything to do with the web side of the business is massive. So, that's growing. We're just currently updating all the web side. But I think moving forward, I don't think there's going to be a great deal of difference when you're manufacturing. It may be that there's more machinery involved. So I'm sure there'll be a lot more automation coming into businesses.
But to me, anything to do with business [00:26:00] is common sense, and as long as you've got that as a basic starting point, you stand a chance. Because you can have whatever qualification or background, you can come from wherever, but if you haven't got common sense, you might as well just not bother. So, from our point of view, that's all I want in anybody. And we can train and we can develop people to whatever the role needs to be, within reason. So I don't [00:26:30] think having a family business is any different to have a corporate business in that sense, because as I said, if you haven't got the common sense and the get-up-and-go to do it, it's out of the window anyway. You might as well not bother.
Natalie Wright: Yeah, absolutely. And you'll have no doubt certainly seen a lot over the last 34 years, working in manufacturing, especially. So, I imagine there's been some real highs and lows. But this year, it has been unprecedented for [00:27:00] many reasons, and we're kind of hearing two schools of thought around the next generation. So first of all, the next generation, they're wanting to potentially accelerate and move into a business or leadership role. Really to give new thinking, provide new skills, help a more traditional business, I guess, transform and be ready for whatever this new world is that everyone's talking about.
And then the other side of it, is that actually the next generation might decide against moving into a family business because [00:27:30] they see the stress, the strain, they're working very long hours. All that added to it. And I guess that might have created some negative perspective, from both a financial and person relationship and side. But what are your thoughts? And what advice could you offer to family businesses who are now starting to think about the next generation and introducing them in the midst of a pandemic?
Chris Black: Oh, wow. Just a small one, that. Well, [00:28:00] I think at the end of the day, if you're working for yourself, and being in a family business, that's what you're doing, I would much rather be doing what I am doing now, in all honesty and without trying to upset anybody, working for ourselves than for anybody else. Because you're in charge of your own destiny. If it all goes wrong, yeah, it all goes wrong. But at the end of the day, that's the same in any business. I don't see any difference between it, because you can work for a multinational [00:28:30] and it can go down. And there'll be a lot more pain than there will be... Or as much pain as there will if the family business goes down. The only downside is you all lose at once.
I would never talk anybody out of going into a family business. I've loved my career. My father has. He's been here 42 years and he's still here. He's 65. Still comes in every day. Looks a bit [00:29:00] more frazzled than he used to do now and again, if anything kicks off. But we try and protect him from that. Well, it's probably not a choice that we ever thought about. It was something that happened and I stumbled into it, if you want. Alex, he'll do the same if he wants to stay. I'm sure he will. I'm sure Michael's the same.
And I think most people you speak to. I know some people go off to university as a plan, but [00:29:30] then they will come back into the business. I speak to a lot of people in family businesses, second generation that disappeared, and then they actually though, "Well, I'm missing it." Been to university, gone and worked for somebody else, but then they seem to migrate their way back. A lot of them will say that they did it intentionally, but I think a lot of the time they miss the feel of the family business. And I think that's what it is. Wherever you are, whether it's family business or [00:30:00] not, you've got to go where your heart it. There's no point [inaudible 00:30:05], you coming in there and, I don't know, tying them to the back of the car and dragging them in every morning. If they don't want to be here, like any other member of the team, they're not going to be here, or they're not going to perform, or you're not going to get the best out of them.
And what you want is, when everybody walks through that door at 7:00, 8:00, 9:00 in the morning, and you want them to be up and ready for the today's fight, which is what we're all in. [00:30:30] And win the game or win the match that day and beyond. So, that's all I want. And that's the thing anybody who's thinking about going into a family business... The nice thing is, you can really get stuck in. And some days when you're having a bad day, you think, "Well, we're doing this for ourselves and the family," and that gives you that extra bit of energy that you need when sometimes you are flattened, you're done for.
Natalie Wright: I'd say that's a great reply, actually. And purpose is really [00:31:00] key to it, isn't it? If you know what your purpose is and the purpose of the business, and you're invested in that, that's probably the right path for you.
Chris Black: Yeah, I think so. It's probably about what you're manufacturing as well. The nice thing with what I do personally in the business, is that I'm still involved with sales as well. And the amount of messages we get from customers that are giving you feedback and thank you letters and emails. And it's the type of product where people talk to it. We've [00:31:30] got Facebook accounts and we're getting banter all the day from people. And even last night, we just pulled a machine from a lady who bought a machine two years ago from us. She's French, she's moving back to Paris and she can't take her jukebox. She's literally up in tears asking me to take the machine back off her, but she really wants to take it with her. I was getting texts off her till 10:00 last night telling me how upset she was that we'd have to take it back. And where are our dealers in Paris? Because when she moves there, she'll try and [00:32:00] get one of our slim line models.
And that's what it is, because that [inaudible 00:32:04] all right. Sometimes you think, "Oh wow, I'm at home." But having that connection with our customers that I have, sometimes when you're having a bad day... Not every day is rosy. But that then when you sat at home and you get a ping on your phone, and it's one of your customers saying, "Oh Chris, this is brilliant," or "I'm going to really miss this," or there's something happening, it gives you that buzz again where you think, "Oh, well, this is great. This is what it's about, this is." It's [00:32:30] not just building some soulless thing. We're actually getting involved with people's lives and becoming part of their lives and part of their journey.
So, I think you probably get that in any other business if you're selling something similar, you get that interaction. But for me, with a family business, that's what makes the difference, that I've got that touching point with the end user as well. And I know what goes through getting it from a tree to looking like one of these machines behind me. [00:33:00] And the enjoyment that it's then bringing, you get that second sector of the process, if you want.
Natalie Wright: Great reminder that if you love what you do, then that's where you want to be. So if we just finally then... And this is probably the most taboo question, but I think it's something we do hear a lot about when we speak to families who are in business together, and it's something that a lot of individuals do genuinely struggle with. So you're in business with your father, [00:33:30] your wife, your brother, your son. There must have been points at which when managing those personal relationships and dynamics has been difficult at times. But it's not a corporate environment. You can't easily go home, close the door, forget about a cross word or disagreement. So as a family, how have you managed conflict in the past?
Chris Black: We just don't talk. [crosstalk 00:00:33:55]. No, look, I think [00:34:00] luckily me and Cath have got a great marriage. Literally, we don't see each other in the building. She's downstairs, I'm upstairs. So, that won't give us much grief at work are at home. Alex is in the other end of the building, so I'll speak to him maybe two or three times a day, if that. He's 20. When he comes home we hardly see him anywhere. He's out with his girlfriend all the time. So me and my dad, great. I mean, not only do we work together, [00:34:30] I only live three doors away from him as well, and me mom. So, we are probably a bit strange that we don't have the big bust-ups that everybody expects that you have.
Yeah, as I say, everybody has a bad day now and again. Probably with it being a family business, there's a bit more swearing than normally would be around the boardroom table sometimes. But it is very far. I mean, I can't remember the last time anybody had a bad word. And it's just [00:35:00] literally, we just come in, get on with the job, and just try and do the best we can. I know you can have businesses where everybody's throwing chairs at each other and things like this. That's not what we do. We're all chilled and relaxed. We've got music to listen to all day long, so we're okay.
Natalie Wright: Sounds good. Chris, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a real pleasure speaking with you, and I really appreciate you [00:35:30] sharing your experience and thoughts. I know it's not always easy when we're talking about business and family. I've been lucky enough to get a tour around the site, so I've seen what goes on behind the scenes, and it really is truly incredible to see the level of craftsmanship that goes into each of the jukeboxes. And I appreciate tours of the site probably aren't happening at the moment, but where can people find out more about you, the jukeboxes, the rest of the business?
Chris Black: Well, if you go onto [00:36:00] soundleisure.com, which is our webpage, it's split into different sections. So, we have the section for the operating side, the digital side, and the classic jukeboxes are classicjukeboxes.co.uk. We do do tours still. And in fact, there's a customer coming in this afternoon, so he'll be walking around like an astronaut when we're finished bagging him up to walk around the factory. But he's going to have a look at a jukebox. [00:36:30] And we're doing quite a lot of work with the schools and local UTC as well, so we're looking at doing virtual tours around the factory as well. So we do the virtual tours of the machines. So we set machines up. So that's something we did bring in with COVID where people didn't want to travel. So we just set a machine up in the show room and run through it with them like we are on here. And it's worked extremely well. So yeah, we're still open for business and we're very socially distanced, [00:37:00] and we can do it here rather remotely. And we're always pleased to see people and show them what we do.
Natalie Wright: That's great. Thank you, Chris. And I will provide some mem links in the show notes. So that brings our eighth and final episode of the Exploring Family Business podcast with Mazars to a close. If any of our listeners have any questions about succession or engaging the next generation, please do get in touch. This can be a process that can make or break both the business and potentially family. So planning ahead for a smooth transition [00:37:30] and open communication are really key.
I'd like to thank you for listening to our first series. We hope you've enjoy the content and that we've been able to help you take away some action points to help you achieve your goals in your own family business. And if you enjoyed the series, please leave us a review on iTunes. It will help us to extend our reach to support the family business community. Thank you for listening.